How to Scale to $30K+ Months
Episode Summary:
Friends, I am so excited about today's podcast episode. It is with a client and good, good friend of mine, Kaitlin Kirk. You may remember her from an early podcast episode but I thought it was about time to bring her back on and share more of her story of how she's really grown and scaled her business in the last two years in a really beautiful and inspiring way. Kaitlin regularly hits $25K+ months, but she’s really done so much of the mindset work and harder backend things in her business to help get her there. She’s sharing the top things that have brought her the most success, what her happy, boring life looks like, and the impact that she hopes her business will provide long after she’s gone. This whole conversation is just so beautiful and I know it’s going to leave you feeling fully inspired.
Topics Discussed:
How hiring a team was the number one thing that supported Kaitlin in growing her business and how she overcame the fear that came with growing her team
Some of the freedoms and results that Kaitlin is seeing now and on the horizon after working through some really hard mindset work and decision making
The (happy, boring) dream life that Kailtin is giving herself permission to have and how this has helped grow her business
The advice that Kaitlin would give to someone who is scaling their business but feeling stuck
Why Kaitlin 100% believes that you should hire your first or next team member first, then figure out sales second
The impact that coaching and your community can have on the success of your business and choosing to work with the same coach long term
The legacy that Kailtin is creating while believing that her business will outlive her
Episode Resources:
About Kaitlin:
Kaitlin Kirk is a Chartered Professional Accountant serving small businesses in Ontario and Alberta, Canada. She used to do financial process improvement for a $5 billion company and now brings those big business skills and insights to small businesses. When she's not helping small business owners to understand and improve their financial situation, you'll find her playing beach volleyball.
Connect with Kaitlin:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google | Stitcher
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Anna Rapp (00:00:03):
Friends, I am so excited about today's pucks episode. It is with client and good, good friend of mine, Caitlin Kirk. You may recognize her or remember her from an early podcast episode and we were talking and we thought it was about time to bring her back on and share more of her story of how she's really grown and scaled her business in the last two years in a really beautiful and inspiring way. So welcome, Caitlin.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:00:27):
Thank you. Thank you for having me back.
Anna Rapp (00:00:30):
<Laugh>, why don't you, if someone's never met you before, why don't you introduce yourself to us? Tell us a little bit about your business.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:00:36):
Sure. I'm Caitlin Kirk. I'm a chartered professional accountant in Canada. I have a small business. It's growing every day, but it's still small. And we support other small business owners to really understand their finances and business in general and process. But we do it in a way that's supporting them all year versus sort of the traditional once a year accounting model.
Anna Rapp (00:01:08):
I love that. I think if it'll be okay with you, where I'd love to start is like, when you think about the last two years of your business, what are some of the things that you're most proud of accomplishing? And maybe we can talk through what you had to do to make that happen.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:01:28):
My number one thing I think is team, like, you know, how hard I struggled with team. I, I think the first, the first time I hired somebody, it was really scary, but like, I'm doing a thing and you know, I think even that was before we were working together. And I am the kind of person that's like, oh, this is scary. We should probably do more of it. <Laugh>. and I, things are, you know, frightening, but I really like to lean into that kind of thing. But team was one of those things that I was convinced I would never figure out. And I have had a number of team members come and go for various reasons. And I've really worked hard to clean up my side of the fence. And that's, I think I, I now have such a great team and I am so proud of that because yes, it's, it's them and they're great and they do great work.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:02:32):
But I didn't get there. I wasn't lucky. I was not lucky in building this team. And I think in a lot of cases there are elements of, oh, I was really fortunate in the success that I've had and I sort of temper that with, well, but I was lucky. Well, but, you know, yeah, I worked hard, but whatever, not this time. <Laugh> this time I worked just so hard for it. So I think definitely having a really good team is like the number one thing that I'm proud of. And then all of the mindset stuff that I had to work through to be able to get there. Because I think in some cases mindset work is hard, but fun. Like, there's that sort of problem solving, I'm gonna try and figure this out. It's sort of an edge, but we're having fun with it.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:03:22):
But there are also moments in mindset work where it's like, this just sucks and I don't wanna do it. And it really is the thing I'm struggling with. And I don't think I really realized how hard that can be and how long it can take and how many different plateaus you reach cause you think you're done <laugh> and you're not. So yeah, I think working through that mindset stuff this year, to be able to build a team, to be able to systemize a lot of stuff within the company, even more than I had before. And to really be in a position now where I can see, I can feel it, I can't, it's not just that I can see the next steps. It's like, it's, it's about to happen where this business gets leveled up in a, in a way that I'm probably not prepared for it. I'm so excited. <Laugh>.
Anna Rapp (00:04:17):
Yes. Ok. Great. Yes. Let's dive into that and like, we'll, we'll dive more into like the nitty and gritty of like the hard work you had to do. Cause I think that's such an interesting conversation, especially for like ambitious women where like, so much comes easy to us, what happens when something doesn't, right. But first, like, dive more into that. Like what are some of the freedoms or results that you're seeing now and on the horizon so that we can give people hope if they are working on something in their business and they're like, this sucks. Like, what do they have to look forward to?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:04:47):
Well, even today is a great example. So at, in Canada tax season sort of ends April 30th. And when we're recording, we're into June. So I have just now caught up from coming out of tax season. But it means that I get to have an extra long lunch with my partner. And then we went for a walk and I lay on the floor with my dog for a bit. And then I came back and I answered some emails, you know, and things continued to move along. I answered some team questions. I handed out some more work. I might go back to language learning that I'm trying to learn a language, so I might do some of that today. Like, it's just a really like free free, like you said, but it's also easy and not in, not in a, not in a dull kind of way, but in a, I get to work hard at some points and I am totally okay with not working, which was another one of those mindset things where going for a walk is a c e o task. That's a thing I need and I'm good with it, you know? So just the, the ease I think of it is really the thing that I am trying to embrace. Embrace the mess, embrace the easy parts too, though. <Laugh>
Anna Rapp (00:06:17):
Embrace it being easy. Tell me more about like, I think this is so good, right? I would call it like a happy, boring dream life. I find that like a lot of us, like, not that there's anything wrong with a glamorous life, but I love that you said like, Anna, my dream life is being able to like, have long lunch with my partner, snuggle my dog, learn like, you know, Russian, right? Like what, like what's the dream life that you're giving yourself permission to have?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:06:44):
Oh boy, I got into the garden last weekend and it was the greatest thing. So just like all the things that are on my list that I keep putting off because I feel guilty about, I wanna guard him. It's, I wanna get my hands dirty. I wanna learn to read in Russian. I've got Russian fairy tales back here that I wanna be able to read to my partner's son. I want, I've got my guitars that I brought from Calgary, I wanna be able to play and for myself, but also for like my partner's son. So, you know, he's only seven. So just trying to introduce him to things that he doesn't see in his regular life. I wanna play all of the beach volleyball that I possibly can. I am signed up for four different teams, so I play at least four days a week and I wanna just play every day. <Laugh>.
Anna Rapp (00:07:40):
If you guys know Caitlin, she's actually a very good, like, you, you are a volleyball queen, <laugh>.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:07:45):
I am. Well, I wanna be, you know, I don't wanna be arrogant about it, but like, I
Anna Rapp (00:07:52):
Don't wanna brag, but I'm kinda good <laugh>.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:07:54):
I might be one of the best in the city, but I don't, I don't wanna brag. Literally,
Anna Rapp (00:07:57):
Literally you're
Kaitlin Kirk (00:07:59):
<Laugh>. Yeah. I might be winning leagues here, but I don't wanna, I mean, it's a two p person sport. It's not just me, <laugh>,
Anna Rapp (00:08:09):
<Laugh>, hey, you know, I'm all about a brag moment. Like I like own that.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:08:17):
Yeah, it's great tho. So those are the things, those are all the things, and they're all personal things, which if you had talked to me two, three years ago, well, you did talk to me two or three years ago, <laugh>. They were all work things. All of those things that I wanted to do were work things. And I think as the business scales, it's just been somehow easier. I don't wanna say somehow you're pushing me to, to cultivate this personal stuff. But the business gets easier as the personal stuff gets bigger, which is such a weird tension that you just don't believe when you, when it feels like your business needs you 24 7. Yes.
Anna Rapp (00:09:05):
Take us back to like, you know, a time where, cuz there is a point in your business when you're first growing your business where you are putting in a lot of hours and you are doing a lot of the work, right? And then there's this awkward moment in time where you're like, oh my gosh, in order to scale, I actually have to pull myself out of the business, right? I have to hire a team and work less. Like, and that can be a difficult moment of like, do I wanna work? Who am I when I'm not working? Is it safe for me to earn money on my team's back? Right? Do I even want a team and wanna deal with humans, right? Like, do I wanna manage people? Right? Talk to us about some of that tension.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:09:41):
That's a great, that's a great like way to frame it. Because it's, I think we sort of have this idea of like, oh, I'm gonna build this company, or I'm gonna scale, or this people have this, I'm gonna scale. You really can't scale without a team in some way. And your responsibility as a business owner changes as the team changes. And like, I know for, for me, when I think about team now, it's very different than when I started because when I started, my only real experience was in big, big teams. Like yes, we had four or five people within our, sort of our team at Husky, but like Husky's finance department is like a thousand people or more. Yeah. So you have a very defined job when you work in something like that. And so for me, in thinking about the way that I was going to scale or the team that I was gonna build it, yes, the plan was always to work less, but in a lot of cases it just ended up meaning working differently. <Laugh>
Anna Rapp (00:10:52):
Or temporarily like more work. Cuz you're managing
Kaitlin Kirk (00:10:55):
People, right? Yeah. And understanding that managing people is a job. Like when I first had, when I first had one person, it wasn't so bad, but then I had two people and then I had three people. And then it was like, well, they're not doing what I asked them to do. And I think it was you that was like, well, like your job is to manage them. You can't just assume that it's gonna work. Like you can't, you can't treat them like coworkers. They report to you. So you need to have them actually report to you <laugh>. And so I sort of, in the beginning of having a bigger team, I say bigger, it's not really a huge team, but you know, having three or four people, I realized pretty well, not as early as I probably should have, but that I can't do as much work as much work in quotes, client work as I used to be able to do because I now also have this job of managing people.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:11:57):
And it was interesting that the more I realized that was a job and the more I got into that, the more I realized that was a job and I had more and more things to do. Like you sort of explore that area and it's like, oh, it's not just like checking on their work, but then, you know, now every morning I have a half an hour block down on my calendar. I run the reports in my workflow system to see what everybody's workload is for the current month, what their due dates look like, if they're overdue with anything, what their status. Like, like I'm actively managing these three, four people. And it is like 30 minutes every morning is just to get enough information to actively manage them the rest of the day <laugh>. And I'm not a micromanager. I am like hands off to a fault probably.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:12:49):
But yeah, I guess just like now I work less, now I work a lot less. But there was the, that early messy middle as you like to say, that messy middle of like, sort of working more but working differently and trying to get my head around the idea of like working differently doesn't mean wrong. Doing less client work doesn't mean I'm doing less. It just means my responsibilities are changing and, and higher level tasks are not, they're actually more valuable, even though a lot of times they take less time because they take more space. Yeah. Which is just sort of a, that's something I had to learn. It wasn't something somebody could tell me. <Laugh>,
Anna Rapp (00:13:35):
I agree. It's like, it's like less work, but it's like more potent work, right? Yes,
Kaitlin Kirk (00:13:39):
Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess like in the beginning, just understanding that that that is gonna change and that you're gonna face some mindset stuff that you didn't know was there. And so look forward to that <laugh> <laugh>.
Anna Rapp (00:14:02):
It's true. Like take me about, there's something so potent you said at the start of this interview too, around like I do think as you grow and scale your business, right? Like some things come easy, just, just depending on like a lot of factors, right? And some things are hard, right? And I would say for most people, mastering sales is hard for most people. Mastering team is hard, right? Like, but as an ambitious woman when like, like volleyball, like you're naturally brilliant and gifted and right. Like what happens when something in business takes months or a year or more to master and in like the grand scheme of things, right? If we own your, if you own your business for 30 years, it's just a year, right? But when you're in it and when you're struggling with something, a year is a very long duration. Right? So what advice would you give to someone, let's say they're in the scaling their business and it's either team or systems or something they're really stuck on for a long duration. What advice would you give them there as far as like keeping on track and not giving up and throwing in the towel?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:15:14):
I can tell you what I kept thinking. <Laugh>, <laugh>. I dunno if it's good advice necessarily, but it was sort of like, what's the alternative?
Anna Rapp (00:15:26):
Yeah.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:15:27):
You know, there were definitely times, there were times I have taken active steps to close the business in the past, <laugh>, but what's the alternative? Oh, going to work for somebody else. Which in those moments sounds great, by the way. <Laugh>. Yep. I think, I think one of the things that really helped me is, is actually understanding like what the next thing is, but also what the last thing was because I stuck at recognizing wins. Like that's something we've been working on for like the whole time we've worked together and you've assigned me like list 10 wins every week, <laugh> I think every week for the last 10, like three years. I think I've done it maybe 10 times. Like I'm terrible at that. But I, those, the, the, it is important I guess because it's important to understand that you are making progress. Yeah. Even though it's not done. And like I'm a sprinter, <laugh>, I am like, I'm the kind of person that gets obsessed by a problem. Yeah. And then I figure it out. Yeah. That is my whole life for like two weeks or three weeks. I kind of, maybe, maybe three months. But like I'm, you know, I'm a sprinter and so when something like this team thing is taking me a year, two years, it's I guess about finding the sprints within the marathon.
Anna Rapp (00:17:08):
Yeah.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:17:09):
And understanding like, this time was better than the last time. This time still sucked. <Laugh>, I still screwed this one up hugely, but it was better. I didn't screw it up quite as bad as the last time. And, and just, you know, understanding I didn't screw it up as bad as last time. And what's the alternative <laugh>? Like that's maybe kinda a dark way
Anna Rapp (00:17:35):
To look. No, no, no. I love those two. I love them both. Like seeing the progress right on the way to like a new skill or a new thing. We're mastering seeing the micro wins, right. Even before we have the big win. Right. Really seeing like, ooh, I actually am improving, Ooh, this is getting better. Right? And then I agree also seeing like what's the alternative? Yes, there's a downside to having challenges in business, but is it still an upside to going back and working for someone a hundred percent all day long? Right?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:18:02):
Yeah. I think too with like to what you just said, there are, I, this also might be a little dark. There are no big wins. There's not, because every time I'm like, oh, I have this goal, or I'm gonna build this team, or I'm gonna hire this new person and I'm gonna scale in whatever. It never feels like, like it never quite goes the way you think it's going. Like you never really reach that signpost. And then if you kind of do, it's like, well, but it turns out there's another signpost, which is I understand why you keep having me record these wins because this is my mindset of like, well that didn't turn out to be so bad. I know I'm gonna pick something harder. Are we're gonna do that <laugh>, then I'll feel better <laugh>. And
Anna Rapp (00:18:52):
That's your beautiful ambition speaking right. Is like what's next, what's around the corner. But I do think like, like you said, taking a moment to celebrate, oh, I'm making xk months on this many hours. Like that is not what I was doing last year. Right? Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:19:07):
Yeah. Absolutely. I, I guess too it's that those big wins are still in progress
Anna Rapp (00:19:14):
Always.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:19:15):
I still like, I have a great team and that, that is a huge win even though it wasn't like, today is the day I win. Yeah. it, but I'm also in the process of hiring somebody else because I just lost my star person. Yeah. Through no fault of either of ours, it's just life happened that way. But, you know, it's not, it's life and business are always in flux, I guess is really what I meant.
Anna Rapp (00:19:43):
And I think the cool thing with the skill too is for you, it's less about having the dream team and knowing you can build a dream team anytime you need one. Right. That's what I say about sales. It's less about having a full client roster and knowing that you have the sales skills so that if you ever need to, you can sell. I think now you're really at this bulletproof place of, even if you lose a team member, you're like, I know how to hire and attract and filter team members. That's the thing. Right?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:20:08):
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Hearing you say that, I do feel a lot better in, you know, when that person had to quit because of, of family things. I was like, man, that sucks. And I, it was probably two minutes of like feeling sorry for myself. And then I was like, well, I guess I'll dust off the job description that I still have and, you know, go back to my s o p because I, I've already done this. I've written it out. Not only have I done this, I've written it out. We've ironed out some of the cre Like I know exactly how to do this. I know how many people I'm gonna interview. I know exactly what the skillset is and the soft skills that I'm looking for. And I know if I screw this up, I can fire somebody. So it, it's not like the stakes are not so high. It's not like I have to, I have to get this right. I know how to isolate this person so they don't do a bunch of damage if they're not the right person. And I know how to fire somebody and I it's sometimes it's a big blue s sue egg, but it's worth them.
Anna Rapp (00:21:12):
So that like, I just wish your like two year ago self could have heard you say this right now. Cause in fact, like when you had told me that, that, you know, the person was leaving, I was almost like had to read it two times in base camp because you seem so chill about it, <laugh>. And I think it's this idea of like, is gonna happen in our business. Right? It's not about things not happening, it's just about do we have the skills so that it, we can deal with it. Right. And I think giving you so much credit, Caitlin, I really feel like in the last two years, honestly, like a year and a half, right, you've mastered being the leader, the c e o of your business, that some people take eight years and master's degrees and leadership development retreat. Like, it really is a fast amount of time to master managing people, having boundaries, hiring and firing. And like two years is very fast. And so I think it's just like giving yourself credit for getting to that place so quickly.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:22:11):
Thank you. I feel a little like, it's sort of a whole life. I think it's like everything in my life has led me to this moment <laugh>
Anna Rapp (00:22:20):
To absolutely. Right now. Tell me about a lot of my clients that are like in the messy middle of like, they're making maybe like eight, 10 k months. They're not quite making like 20, 30, 40, right? And they're in this, they're playing with the idea of scaling, but they know there's gonna be that mess, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they know they're gonna like, they're like, they're kind of fine at 10 k months. Yeah. I'm kind of like overworked and stressed, but like, do I really wanna manage a team? Maybe they have baggage around team, it's kind of comfortable. Like again, like it's a li like give me some advice or thoughts for women that are like, do I wanna dive into that mess to get to the 40, 30, 40 K? Like, is that really worth it?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:23:05):
I think, I think that's a great question for business owners to ask themselves and to say, what is it about my current situation or my, like in business or whatever that isn't working for me and how, how do I wanna address that? And in a lot of cases, scaling is actually the answer <laugh>. Like, I know that feels weird and it's like, oh, I'm overworked. But it's like you can't, it's like that awkward teenage phase where
Anna Rapp (00:23:42):
Totally awkward teenage phase. Yep.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:23:45):
It's worth it because you cannot operate at 110% Yeah. For a long time. Like you can't. Yep. And it, I'll tell you, it takes a long time to heal after that. Yeah. So it's worth it. It's, it's worth it to do it. I think before you're really ready. It's kind of like when I tell clients about QuickBooks, they're like, well, I'm in Excel and I'm fine. I'm like, sure. But now when you need QuickBooks, you're not gonna have time to learn it. So you should maybe learn it now and then you'll scale into it. Like you'll grow into it. I think in the beginning it's, it's the thing that I did backwards too many times was trying to get the clients first and hire second. Cuz I had this fear that I wasn't gonna be able to pay people. Yeah. I wasn't gonna have the hours for them even though I promised it to them.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:24:47):
Yeah. I just thought better to have the work first I'll just work more hours. Yeah. Better to have the work first, then they can just take my work for me and I'll just sort of flow through for me. Haha. That's never how that works, <laugh>. It's, it's never how that works. One, it's so uncomfortable to be working above capacity. Yeah. That like, you don't really have energy for anything else. So thinking that you're gonna hire Yeah. While you're over capacity Yeah. Is just nuts. Not only do you not have time for the process, but you don't have time for your brain to like evaluate another human. Like that's a hard skill that requires some space in your brain to be really functioning so higher. First <laugh>, you will figure out the other stuff after and you'd be surprised how much stuff you have to do in your business.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:25:45):
Like, I have hired people having no clients for them and found all this stuff that I was doing that I didn't even really know that like I knew I was doing it, but it was just sort of saying, Ooh, okay, I now have 20 hours of capacity that this person I've just hired. Cool. What can I have them do? And then just offloading all of this stuff, they feel great because they, you know, get the hours and I'm able to dedicate time to onboarding them properly because I have hired people in the middle of tax season after firing a full-time. My only full-time employee after they hadn't been doing any work for three months and I was so overwhelmed. I can tell you their onboarding experience was maybe not the best. Because I didn't have a lot of time for it. So if you want to make that leap from one person, maybe one person, an assistant, like you're hiring somebody that does the work that you do, hire first fill capacity later, like get sales later because the other way does not work and it's not scalable. Like you can't keep doing it that way. Maybe it'll work once, but that's not, that's not the way to build the business.
Anna Rapp (00:27:08):
Yes. And it is like, it is a risk every time. Right. Ev even as you're growing and hiring new team, like you're always like, Ooh, do I have the budget? Right? Do I have the c? Like, but I agree it does work better to like, even if it's your very first hire, most people when they hire their first VA for five hours, they're like, what am I gonna have them do? Can I afford it? Does it like, but I would say every single hire, it is a little bit of that. It is a little bit of risk. It a little, it is a little bit of an advanced investment. But I think it's such a statement to the universe of like, of course I'm gonna invest in this team member, this person, this coach this whatever, because I'm gonna keep growing. Right? Instead of like, what if I do this and then my business shrinks, right. It's almost like it's not right. I'm gonna take action as if my business is growing and that's what's gonna help but keep growing.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:27:56):
Yeah. A hundred percent. And also knowing if for whatever reason you lose a bunch of clients. Like for me, I hired these people and I started looking for another person and I started looking for another book. Like I was hiring two people and then suddenly I had 10 clients leave. And I was like, well I don't actually need this extra person anymore, but I'm not gonna stop. I'm still gonna hire them because we'll figure it out. I know for sure I am absolutely gonna sell more spots. That is not a question. Yeah. That's not a thing that I think about. I know Abso like a hundred percent we're gonna fill those spots. So I think even like just thinking that line all the way through of saying, okay, if this does happen, yeah, it doesn't matter <laugh>. Like it doesn't matter.
Anna Rapp (00:28:47):
I love and I love too how you're modeling just that skill of like how having such rock sale, rock solid confidence in your sales and your ability to sign clients and fill client spots really leads to the next skill, the team part, right? Like they really do stack on themselves so well with each other. And so I love how you said that
Kaitlin Kirk (00:29:06):
They do it. It is a confidence. Absolutely. And that's been proven for me in the last few years cuz that was the thing I got obsessed with. And then I did sell with hard and that was the thing that was like, oh yeah, I can sell No problem. <Laugh> crushed
Anna Rapp (00:29:20):
It. You crushed it.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:29:21):
Yeah. Sell with hard a hundred percent. What gave me that skillset, but also knowing that, like, I don't wanna get, I guess too, I don't know what you call it, but like the universe has got me <laugh>, so stuff's gonna happen and it's gonna be at the most inopportune time. Having my one accountant quit at the end of tax season was probably the worst possible time for that to happen. But like, like I'm gonna find somebody else and I think there is that sort of 90% or whatever confidence. Yeah. But that extra 10% of like, I'm just gonna, whatever, it's gonna happen. The universe is gonna figure it out. I'm gonna do my best. I'm you know, I'm only an accountant too. I'm not a doctor or something, you know what I mean? Like, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. I've never not figured it out so far, so we'll see. We'll just see what happens.
Anna Rapp (00:30:24):
<Laugh>. It's so true. I love what you said there. I've never not figured it out so far. Right. And I think that's a lot of what helped you through some of the team stuff is really seeing the past things in your business and your life. Like, there's nothing I've never done and not figured out literally. Right. Whether it's outside of business or in business. So like, yes, this thing feels messy, but at the end of the day, I know I'm gonna figure it out because I can figure anything out. Right?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:30:53):
Yes. That is not necessarily always the mindset that I'm in, but it's always in there, you know, it's sort of like that's the foundation I'm standing on, even though there are days when I'm like, the this is not gonna work and this is messy and I'll like it and like Anna, I quit and like, but I, I, you know, working with you, I think we like, I I get to talk to you every week and that foundation that I have of like, yes, I've, I've never not figured it out. I always believe there's always that belief that I'm gonna figure it out. Sometimes you have to sort of top me off a ledger, like remind me of that. But, but it's always there. It's, yeah, I think
Anna Rapp (00:31:34):
You always latch back on like sometimes I have to remind you, but then you're like, oh yeah, duh. Like, yes, you're right. I always figure this out. I'm smart. Of course. Like, let's get back to work. Right.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:31:44):
And that's, I think one of the critical pieces of my success is having a good team. And I don't necessarily mean the people who work like as bookkeepers for me, but like having you on my team, having my mom on my team, you know, like just, just generally surrounding myself with people that are willing to be like, yeah, this sucks, but you are gonna figure it out and you're gonna be fine. And like, how can I support you? Because it's, this is not a solo game. Even if you're a solo printer. <Laugh>,
Anna Rapp (00:32:19):
Yes. Oh my God. Okay. Let's talk about that more, especially when it comes to coaching. Because I think there's this conception that like, we have to figure it out on our own. At the end of the day, I do think like we need to be our own c e o our intuition comes first. But I also think like it's okay to like have a coach that you're super messy with, to have a coach that like you really lean on hard, right? Like it's so like we don't have to be hyper independent. Like it's safe for us to depend on people as we're doing very challenging things like what helped give you permission to invest in and continue to invest your time, money, energy into coaching.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:33:02):
I am the kind of person that likes to talk about things to get it out of my head. I have this belief, and I don't know where it came from, but I'm sure I didn't make it up, that when you can take something outta your brain and then put it back through another sense, like your eyes or your ears, like your, your whatever, then your brain gets to refilter it. And sometimes in that refiling it sees the logic leap that you've been making when it's just been in your brain. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so for me, investing at, in the beginning, investing with Sell with Heart was very much an identification of I suck at sales. I know I do and I can't figure this out on my own. Like, I've tried <laugh> and there's this, this one link in the chain that I cannot figure out.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:33:52):
It's like frigging magic and I don't know somebody please explain the magic. And so, so you did in sell with Art, you did explain that magic. And I was like, whoa, what other magic skills does she have? <Laugh>, I need to know more about this. And I think just like in, in being coached, it really helps me to examine myself and my brain. And yes, we talk about tactical things, but mostly, mostly I can do that stuff. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> partly because we've been working together for so long, but partly because I have a lot of formal education in business and, you know, process is sort of my thing. And so if I can just get outta my own way, a lot of times I have the answer. But, but that coaching piece, it's, it's the mindset piece. It's the, like, this is a fear.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:34:53):
This is not a tactical issue. This is a fear that you have. Then no amount of tactical process is gonna help you with that because you know, you can set up this process, but if you're afraid of step three, then you're probably not getting past step three. Like, so I think that was in the beginning. The most important thing for me is like just being able to identify the fears that I have. And I think the more that you identify them and the more you're able to examine your own brain it's sort of one of those, it's like a snowball where you're just sort of like, Ooh, what else is in there? Ooh, I didn't, I don't, I don't wanna deal with that one. Crap. I guess that's the thing I'm dealing with now. And then you sort of get through it and then you're like, woo, what else is in there? <Laugh>?
Anna Rapp (00:35:44):
It's so true. Right? Like, these things that are hard and challenging, it almost becomes enjoyable when we see that we can, the the momentum that happens after the hard work and when we know we don't have to do it alone. Like, it's not like we're facing our devils in isolation. Like we have a friend, the coach to like, that's in there with us. So it's like kind of, but like kind of fun because we're doing it together, right?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:36:08):
Yeah. And like the ideas that you have that are sometimes like of course like, why did I not think of that? And it's like, well you didn't think of that because you're in your own brain. Like, you're, like you're in your own weeds. Yeah. And it's just having that, having somebody who is not just objective, but is trained in being able to help you see your stuff objectively, because that's a very different skill than, than a just an a friend who can tell you these things. Yeah. So having somebody with a skillset to be able to lead you to water and not just hand you the water. That was a weird way of saying that. But it makes such a difference. So to, to me, I think that's the critical piece of why I choose coaching, professional coaching rather than just like talking to my mom. No, don't get me wrong, I'm also talking to my mom, but, you know, my friends and family don't have that skillset of helping me to understand my own stuff and helping me to explore my own stuff. Yeah, I think that's a really important skillset. So thanks for that.
Anna Rapp (00:37:29):
Yeah. It's an honor to support you. What are your thoughts? I was just thinking too, like we've worked together for like years now, right? Like what are, what do you feel like are the biggest gifts around working with a coach long term? Like, I think there's a lot in the industry around like, work with someone for three months and then find the sexy new coach and then blah, blah blah. Right? Like, find the new tactic, find the new shiny thing. Right. But like, what's been your mindset around going deeper, going deeper with one coach?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:37:58):
You know me better than I know me. I think <laugh> because there's so much, like I don't, I don't have to explain stuff well, like, I I do, but like, you just get me and it's like, yeah. And I am so comfortable and I have like, there are things that we have talked about that I don't think I've talked about with anybody. Well, I know I haven't talked about with anybody. And I think the really interesting and the really, like, I'm making hand moves cuz I don't have words. Like really, I don't know, fulfilling this <laugh> hand graspy motion is fulfilling. Apparently <laugh>, the really fulfilling work comes from depth. Yeah. Because that's, that's interesting. You find things you didn't know were there. Yeah. I'm, I it's hard for me to let people in in a real way. Yeah. So like for me working with you, like you are in, you're like in my inner circle, probably in the inner inner circle, I don't know that anybody else lives in there with me.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:39:25):
Yes. Yeah. And so to me that is so important because there is no fear of telling you anything and there's you, you're so good at not at just like holding a safe space for me. So sometimes I tell you things that like I've never said out loud before. And interestingly that helps me to process them. It helps me to then maybe say them out loud to somebody else if I need to. And in some cases it helps to just know that I am like, this is a normal thing. Like I had a, there was an last year I can remember telling you something and you were very good at, at like hearing me and validating, but then also saying like, this is super normal and you don't have to be so afraid of it. Yeah. I guess. And I think you just don't get that kind of depth and trust and respect if you're switching coaches.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:40:35):
Yeah. You know? And it's, I think too, you get to see the big picture or like, like that timeline, right? So like I know in therapy, and this is not therapy, but in, you know, it's everybody's behavior makes sense. And so you I think get you sort of understand the sense of it, right? Like you sort of see, oh, she's having trouble with this, that and the other thing. It's like, cool. Probably because last year this happened and the year before this happened, and I remember we worked through this already and we've been through like you've been on this journey with me the whole time. Yeah. So it's really, I don't have to explain stuff and you just know me <laugh>, I guess Yeah. To bookend.
Anna Rapp (00:41:27):
Yeah. I mean giving you that credit. I think it takes a lot of, I think for my clients that have been with me for a long time, or even my coach, I've been with her for six years, you know, and I mean, not that there's not a time and place to switch coaches permission for that too, right. But I do think that it takes a lot of courage to do that cuz I think we know when we're with someone, like the more we're there, the more vulnerable we're gonna have to get. Right. The more, like, it takes a lot of courage to be known. I do think the most successful business owners allow themselves to be known in that way. But what's giving you the courage to allow yourself and your heart to be known in a deeper way?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:42:06):
It, I kind of, it, it's like sort of getting into a pool and then you're like, at first you're like, no, this is cold, then I don't wanna do this. But then you sort of like get in, you're like, oh actually maybe this is kind of good. No, maybe I'll just take one more step. Okay. May okay. Maybe I'll just take one more step and then you sort of get in and then before you know it, you're like waiting around in the pool and you're like, this is great <laugh>. Yeah. I think mostly that it just feels so good and maybe good is the wrong word. It feels so supportive and like, like if I'm ever unsure about something, I'll just put it into base camp and sometimes you're calling me out on my stuff in the best way <laugh>. But like, you know what I mean?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:43:03):
Like, I need that because I need somebody who's gonna be like, this is ridiculous. And yes, you're right. Because if you don't have both of those things and people are always just like, yeah, you're right, you're right. It just sort of doesn't feel the same sort of thing. And so just, you know, the more that I told you and the more that you honestly gave me feedback on it, the more I wanted to do it. And the, the more sort of stable I felt, I don't know if I maybe stable's the wrong word, but there have been times when I've been really unstable. And so being that we'd worked together, I think for a year already, when I went through probably the worst mental health period in my life I was not stable, but you were always there to, to just sort of put a virtual hand on my shoulder and be like, Hey, you're good. You're good. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>,
Anna Rapp (00:44:12):
It's been an honor to support you in that way and giving you credit because you hired the stability, right? Like, I think you have experienced a lot of amazing growth very quickly in your business. Like, I am so proud and amazed at how you have grown and scaled, right? But also you have consistently invested in that stability, right? Not just with your money, but with your time. You showed up to session, right. You reached out, right. You would post in base camp when you felt stuck, even if you felt embarrassed about something. Right. So I think it's like, yes, you've had a lot of growth and stability, but I also think you've done the work. And I think in our industry we make it seem so easy to be coaches, not easy to be coached sometimes we don't wanna be called out for. Right. Like, and you've consistently been willing to bring yourself vulnerably to the table. And so just giving you a ton of credit for that.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:45:05):
Thank you. Yeah. And you've been so good at like, oh, she's having a bit of a fit. So I'm just gonna let her have that fit and then we'll try again tomorrow. <Laugh> <laugh>.
Anna Rapp (00:45:19):
Oh, so good. Okay. My la my other question for you is, okay, just almost like as a fun reflective moment, if you, let's say like the two year, let's do both. Let's say the version of you that was first starting your business. Like if you could see be in her shoes and look at you now, what do you think that first version of Caitlin would have to say to you
Kaitlin Kirk (00:45:46):
Really? <Laugh> Really, really you would be like, this is man good work out there, <laugh>.
Anna Rapp (00:45:55):
What would she be proud? What would that Caitlyn be proud of this Caitlin for? I know it's hard to see cuz again, like we always have more, right?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:46:01):
Yeah. well the business is self-sustaining. It's bigger than me. Which the first time you realize your business is bigger than you is a scary thought by the way, <laugh>. But it's way bigger than me. And I think that she would be proud that this is a business, that it will outlive me, it will outlive me, and it, it's gonna exist and continue to provide jobs for people and support for small business in a way that is not just transactional. Like most accountants are, are transactional. Which there's nothing wrong with that. But my vision was to have somebody willing to sit with small business owners as they have their, they freak out about their money and say, you know, it's okay that you feel this way and you shouldn't just know how to do this. So being able to spread that way of accounting I like to say that that that first that girl was trying to create a coaching business that she wrapped in an accounting company. And so I think she, she'd be proud that we have both figured out how to standardize it but have not given up that value. And that, that framework that that yeah. That framework, that company is gonna continue. It's gonna live on whether I'm around or not.
Anna Rapp (00:47:51):
I absolutely, like I love that and I agree that she would be proud of you have systematized it, but you have not taken your heart out. You have not taken your like, not like rebellious nature, but like, what I love about you Caitlin, is you just like, you know, see the way other people do things and you're like, why? Like, why wouldn't, you know what I'm saying? Like, let's do things legally, but also like, let's not be weird. Like let's just be approachable and I think that's why your clients love you so much and refer you and come back to you time and time again. Right. Because you have, you have such a, it reminds me like you're just so funny. You have a great humor. Like you're a likable person, you know? And so I think like you have infused so much of your business into to it, you into your business while systematizing and stuff, which I think is so hopeful for people. Cause I think that's one of the biggest fears as they're growing a team is like, am I gonna lose my signature feel in my business or am my clients gonna get the short end of the stick? Right? Like, but I think it is such evidence of like, you really can keep your thumbprints on your business.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:48:54):
Yeah, you absolutely can. I had that fear. I definitely had that fear. But the, the way that you write process and the people that you choose to hire are really what allows you to keep that feel. You get to choose what your company looks like even when there are other people involved. Like it's still your company. Yeah.
Anna Rapp (00:49:23):
That was brilliant. Like we just need to like sound clip is so true. Right? I love that you articulated it that way. You still are hiring the people, you still are training the people. You still are cre you are creating the processes and it can feel like, not you, but I find it can be even more like you because you're systematizing you and like, it's not dependent on your mood or your energy because it's kind of outside of you. Right?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:49:53):
Absolutely. And you can, the way that you train people, like you said, absolutely. It can be who you are. You can template emails, you can have like new hires, draft emails for you before they go to clients and then you can like rewrite them. Like you can train people to, to interact with your clients in the way that you want them to. Or you can build a thought leadership document. Like we're in the process of going through and like I explain technical accounting to people in a way that most accountants don't. So we're building a document. This is how we explain things. So it, it's sort of, initially I was super afraid of that, but initially, or like when you start to do these systems, it it, it initially feels like this is gonna suck out the personality Yep. From the company. But to me it just made it better because I get to choose the personality <laugh> in the process. Yes. Yeah.
Anna Rapp (00:51:08):
Versus when it's just you, it's so dependent on, it's just so inconsistent because it's dependent on your energy and your mood and versus I agree. I think my clients that have built in scaled, there's even more heart and even more consistency because it's living outside of them.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:51:27):
Yeah. And even like a true sort of testament of that is that I don't really interact with clients all that much anymore, but they still have that same feeling. Like I still, like I, they all have my email address. They could email me if they wanted to. And so I will get emails from clients who have transitioned to a bookkeeper or, you know, have been with me for a long time that I no longer serve personally. They, they have a team member and they'll be like, this team member's great, but like, I love them. You know, because they, they know me and they know the company and we know them. Like, especially those long-term clients that have transitioned, I know them really well. And so, you know, it's sort of like we're, it's not sort of like, it very much is we are all on the same team. It's not the company and the clients we're just all working together trying to do this, trying to get the same work done. We just have different jobs. So yeah. I you can absolutely have a weird quirky accounting company and have weird, quirky people working for you. <Laugh>. Yes.
Anna Rapp (00:52:44):
I love it. And I agree. Like again, I just wanna emphasize what you said, which is like, you hire the team, you create the sy like I do think there's so much fear of like loss of control, but it's actually you kind of end up getting more control in the process.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:53:01):
Yeah, you kind of do. Because because like you said, it used to be if I was having a bad day, they might not get great service. That's just how it is. Like I don't love that. That's true. But that's true. But now with the, the, the team, they and because it's not their company.
Anna Rapp (00:53:23):
Yep. I
Kaitlin Kirk (00:53:24):
Know that seems like a downside, but it's not. Totally
Anna Rapp (00:53:27):
Not.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:53:28):
It's not because you get to give them that weird quirky process and they're gonna do it. Yeah. Because it's, it's, it's not like like it's an internal thing for them. It's not like they don't own this process, they're just doing it. And that's not to say they're not gonna improve it, but that's not like their heart and soul. Yeah. And so yeah, it's, that's such a weird and
Anna Rapp (00:53:55):
Interesting, so true. Right? I think like our team, like it's easier, easier for them to perform consistently when there's less emotion for better and for worse, right? Like if, if a client misses a payment and they send the payment reminder, they're not gonna be like, oh, I feel so bad. They're like, no, I'm following the process, right? Mm-Hmm.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:54:09):
<Affirmative>. Exactly.
Anna Rapp (00:54:11):
Yeah. Okay, last question is, what about the two year ago Caitlin messy middle scaling, what would she look at you now and say,
Kaitlin Kirk (00:54:31):
Funny that this is harder than like four years ago? Yeah. Two years ago, Caitlin, I think she'd say, I can't believe it. I can't believe you did it.
Kaitlin Kirk (00:54:57):
It was a long middle. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. I think, I think I, I would not believe that I got here and that I'm able to work 20 hours a week for the same great salary. Well above what I would make working full-time for somebody else. I get to heal now. And interesting how much better my personal life is at the same time. And those two things really did happen together, like business and personal, they had to happen together. You can't separate those things even though the company is bigger than me and I don't really work with clients anymore. And it is a team, you cannot separate the, the growth and the forward momentum of the company from yourself. Yeah. And your personal stuff as much as I wanted to. Yeah. And so yeah, last year, two years ago, I, I, I mean there's always more to do and there's always, you know, the next level of things that I'm working on, but it's, I'm working on those things because I want to and they're exciting and I wanna be semi-retired at 35, not because I desperately need to survive. And that's just a very different, that's a very different thing. So good work out there. I think she'd say <laugh>,
Anna Rapp (00:56:55):
I think she would say. I love that. It's so true. I love what you said too about like, the reason this last two years felt so much more intense than the first two years. So a few reasons, right? But it really was, and I find for, like you said, for almost every client, I don't know if it's just irony or just how it happens as you scale, you're doing all the scaling learning curves, but almost always there's some big life shifts that happen, right? So it's doubly hard and only half of the hard is the business or like honestly, 30% hard is the business and 70% is whatever life stuff the universe is asking you to work on that you have to face as you're scaling, right?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:57:38):
Yeah. Because you only have so much energy and you gotta be careful and choose what you spend your energy on. And sometimes you don't get to choose. I mean really, I mean, we all wanna choose and you know, we're all sort of our independent humans, but sometimes you just don't get to choose. So yeah, I think interestingly in the last year, the company has not grown in revenue a whole lot, but I no longer work 16 hour days. Right? I make the same amount of money. Like I pay myself the same amount of money and the company actually makes more like the profit margins are actually way better than last. Like, I think at this point, last year I was losing money. So yeah, it's not, when I talk about scaling and growth, mostly I'm talking about revenue, but in a lot of cases too, it's, it's just stabilizing. Yes. You know, like the company grew but not in revenue. It grew in team, it grew in process, it grew in like client communications and it grew in quality. So like the work that we're doing is way better. It grew in profit even though the revenue didn't grow up. And it grew in like balance because I am so much more balanced than I was last year and the year before.
Anna Rapp (00:59:19):
I, and I think that that's so important to share too, right? Like, you know, you grew the revenue but then you decided, okay, I wanna have a year of paying myself the same, but actually I wanna work half the amount of hours. Right? And I think that that process of like increasing revenue, but stabilizing and increasing your freedom right, really sets you up well in this next year to like, okay, now that I have my hours down to 20 or whatever it is, right? Like now I wanna grow <laugh> and make more money. But I think it's just so normal to have that increase in money, stabilize my hours, increase in money, stabilize my hours in life, right?
Kaitlin Kirk (00:59:53):
Yeah, absolutely. And we learned so many things. <Laugh>, <laugh>,
Anna Rapp (01:00:01):
That's why we're here.
Kaitlin Kirk (01:00:03):
That's why we learned so many things. So not like we stabilized and now we are ready. And I don't mean like we've got processes that will scale with us, cuz we do, but we also have like a skillset. Yeah. Which is so cool, you know, because before it was like, okay, I can write process and these processes are scalable and that's cool, but we didn't really understand how to work those processes properly. And now we do and I think, I think too small businesses, we like to talk to each other, small business owners in terms of like revenue growth and like the size of our company. And I just really would love for us to start talking about like our company as like a building <laugh> or something other than just straight up revenue growth because that's not healthy.
Anna Rapp (01:00:58):
Yeah. Like maybe also like hours. Like how many hours? Yeah. How, how stressed are you <laugh>?
Kaitlin Kirk (01:01:03):
Yeah. How stressed are you?
Anna Rapp (01:01:05):
How stressed are you at any moment?
Kaitlin Kirk (01:01:08):
Yeah. Is your candle in at both ends? You should probably put one of those ends out.
Anna Rapp (01:01:16):
I love that. Caitlin, thank you so much for sharing your story. And if as people were listening, if they fell in love with you and need a bookkeeper <laugh> mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and are like, yes, that, like how do they connect with you if they wanna learn more about your business?
Kaitlin Kirk (01:01:35):
My website is a great place to go. Kirk cpa.ca. You can see what we're all about there. You can book time to chat with me. You can ask me questions through there. That's a great one. If you're interested, if you're just starting out and you're like, I have a ton of questions, but I don't know if I need a full-blown accountant just yet. I have a, a beginning in business course that just is from a finance perspective. So it's how to get started with your book and how to do your bookkeeping and your income tax and your sales tax and that sort of thing specifically for Canadians. And that's accounting answers.ca. So if you're sort of just beginning, that's a great point to, to start. But I'd also love to chat with you. So go to my website and book a call.
Anna Rapp (01:02:26):
I love that so much. And I would say like how Caitlin showed up on this interview here, just cuz I know you personally like Caitlin is the real deal. You know what I mean? That's what I appreciate about you, Caitlin, is you are just so art centered. You really are. You are so hardworking. And I know for me, when I think about like when I hire an accountant or when I think about adding someone on my team, like that's who I wanna be adding. And so I could not more highly recommend you and your work and your business and I do feel like your client experience just gets better and better, right? Like, I think your clients have loved you from day one because you have such a savvy heart. But I really think what a gift to people that hop into your client load now as you grow in scale. Because I do think you have been so attentive to like, not just how do I make more money and work less hours, but that's important too. But I think you really have cared about, I mean, you've like hopped on the phone like you, I have seen how you really have cared and showed up for your clients. You care about them deeply.
Kaitlin Kirk (01:03:26):
I do. I do. Yep. They matter to me. They do. And it, it, it matters how they feel about their money, which is maybe not a traditional account thing to say. Yeah. But you can't separate yourself from your money. Just like you can't separate yourself from your business. <Laugh>.
Anna Rapp (01:03:50):
No. Okay, great. We will put all the links to Caitlin's website and socials below, but we would love to hear from you. I feel free to tag us on Instagram. If you are in the middle of like, growing and scaling your business in that messy middle, flirting with like, do, like, it's painful to be in the messy middle, but also it feels painful to really go all in. Let us know we are Caitlin's story inspired. You let us know what nuggets you're taking away and thank you for sharing. So personally, I really appreciate that, Caitlin,
Kaitlin Kirk (01:04:25):
Thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you.
Anna Rapp (01:04:28):
I, I love it too. Let's talk again next week,
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